Re: [sword-support] Video tutorials

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Re: [sword-support] Video tutorials

Barry Drake-4
Hi there .....  I've been exchanging e-mails with Gary North.  It has
not been an easy process, but somehow I've kept my patience.  The first
e-mail to sword-support said something like 'Your program doesn't work
.... '  I've had to drag information from Gary a word at a time -
literally.  However, patience has paid off, and I forward his last e-mail.

The program that caused all the grief is of course the notorious 'Sword
Project for Windows'.  Please please please consider demoting it
seriously on the web site.  I've corresponded with many new users who
are frustrated and almost lost to Sword entirely because of their first
impressions.  Please consider putting Xiphos and BibleTime at the top of
the list of Windows programs and hiding the legacy program somewhat
lower down the list!  I hope this does not offend - but what is said in
the message below is a summary of a lot of views I have tried to respond
to.

I'd appreciate Peter's take on this as he has done far more than I have
on the Sword Support list recently.

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RE: [sword-support] Video tutorials
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 08:46:24 -0400
From: Gary North <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: <[hidden email]>
To: 'Barry Drake' <[hidden email]>



A few minutes ago, one of my site's members -- a programmer -- posted this.
It pretty much sums it up.



Yes, I had forgotten how unusable the site really is. The site I linked to
is the main API site. It is an open source project that started 13 years ago
to provide an opensource Bible software engine, so yes, run by programmers.
I suffer from the same disease.

When you click on the Software link, it lists all the projects that use the
API. The first software application listed, is useless, and they stopped
adding features for it in 2008. Its existence is for testing the API. They
should never had listed it.

The second one listed, Xiphos, is the product you want for Windows or Linux.
It is well documented. No videos, but you can read the user's manual here:
http://xiphos.org/manual/ (it has pictures of the app, making it easier
reading).

MacSword (for the Mac) does not appear to be as well documented (no
pictures, no obvious link to a manual) and only documents how to download
Bibles, and Commentaries.

The iPhone app remains true to Apples principles (cute not helpful)

The documentation for the Android app is nonexistent. I use the Android app,
but I have used this software for years. You have to go into settings and
click on "Download Documents" to get Bibles and commentaries, not intuitive.

I've had my head in the sands for so long in programming, it never crossed
my mind how unusable the site is, and I have used it for years. Thanks for
the heads up, Dr. North.

Now I need to do some soul searching and consider doing screencast videos
for some of the project's software.

________________________________
To subscribe to my free Tip of the Week, click here:
http://www.GaryNorth.com/public/department54.cfm


-----Original Message-----
From: Barry Drake [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2012 8:06 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [sword-support] Video tutorials

On 03/04/12 12:52, Gary North wrote:
>  Sorry, This is techiebabble.  I may invest some money to provide videos.

I'm really sorry my explanation is not clear.  Please tell me how to make it
clearer.  I  thought my question about which Sword program you are using is
a fairly jargon-free request.  The other thing I referred to is an item that
appears somewhere in a menu in every Sword program - it is called 'module
manager', or sometimes 'bookshelf', and our term for a bible or a commentary
etc is a 'module'.

I'd love to be able to help or to point you in the direction of help if only
you will give me more information.  Usually, there is a 'help->about' menu
item in  the program.  This would tell you what I need to know.

God bless,        Barry.

--
Barry Drake is a member of the the Ubuntu Advertising team.
http://ubuntuadverts.org/




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Re: [sword-support] Video tutorials

David Haslam
Hi Barrie,

I've stopped using The SWORD Project for Windows (aka BibleCS) ever since I replaced my Acer Aspire (WinXP) by a Toshiba Satellite (Win7 x64) in August 2010.

Next month, it'll be exactly four years since BibleCS was last updated.

The front-ends I currently have installed are Xiphos, Bible Destop and xulsword (aka Holy Bible).

I don't have a smart phone - but if I did, I'd be hard pressed to choose between an iPhone and an Android.
The latter would probably win.

David Haslam
Go Bible project leader
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Re: [sword-support] Video tutorials

Barry Drake-4
On 03/04/12 16:01, David Haslam wrote:
> I've stopped using The SWORD Project for Windows (aka BibleCS) ever since I
> replaced my Acer Aspire (WinXP) by a Toshiba Satellite (Win7 x64) in August
> 2010.  Next month, it'll be exactly four years since BibleCS was last updated.
  There was some discussion on this list a few months ago asking why
BibleCS was still so heavily promoted on the website.  I know there was
overwhelming feeling that things should change.  They did not!

Valiant attempts were made years ago by David Trotz to improve the
appearance and usability of BibleCS - but David left the project a few
years ago.  There are now at least four excellent front-ends that can
run under Windows and the web-site ought to reflect that, and encourage
the new user to try each of them.

Could I ask all of you to visit the web-site and try to behave as though
you know nothing about the Sword Project.  Or better still, have a
friend go through it and then see what impression they are left with.  
It's quite an eye-opener.

God bless,        Barry.

--
 From Barry Drake (The Revd) Health and Healing advisor to the East
Midlands Synod of the United Reformed Church.  See
http://www.urc5.org.uk/index for information about the synod, and
http://www.urc5.org.uk/?q=node/703 for the Synod Healing pages.

Replies - [hidden email]


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Re: [sword-support] Video tutorials

Greg Hellings
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 10:24 AM, Barry Drake <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 03/04/12 16:01, David Haslam wrote:
>>
>> I've stopped using The SWORD Project for Windows (aka BibleCS) ever since
>> I
>> replaced my Acer Aspire (WinXP) by a Toshiba Satellite (Win7 x64) in
>> August
>> 2010.  Next month, it'll be exactly four years since BibleCS was last
>> updated.
>
>  There was some discussion on this list a few months ago asking why BibleCS
> was still so heavily promoted on the website.  I know there was overwhelming
> feeling that things should change.  They did not!
>
> Valiant attempts were made years ago by David Trotz to improve the
> appearance and usability of BibleCS - but David left the project a few years
> ago.  There are now at least four excellent front-ends that can run under
> Windows and the web-site ought to reflect that, and encourage the new user
> to try each of them.
>
> Could I ask all of you to visit the web-site and try to behave as though you
> know nothing about the Sword Project.  Or better still, have a friend go
> through it and then see what impression they are left with.  It's quite an
> eye-opener.

There is always the disconnect between who our target audience is and
who we are. Some people think the website should be targeted at end
users. If so, then it should be remade to be more like www.ubuntu.com
where it is unmistakably easy to figure out what you need to do in
order to acquire the software. There is one single, prominent button
that you click on and it takes you right to a list of downloads for
the program. Our website doesn't even have a link with the word
"Download" in it - and that rubs me the wrong way. Whenever I visit
software sites as a user I want a big link somewhere prominent -
either like Ubuntu's button or a menu item - that says "Download" or
"Download Now" or possibly "Get It!" since that is what I almost
universally encounter on websites. We just have a link that says
"Software" and it is tucked away in a menu broken between multiple
lines. I still have to sit and stare at the website for several
seconds before I remember what link to follow - and this after nearly
a decade of using our software.

Then there are developers who our site also targets. Granted, we don't
target them very well, but neither do almost any open source projects.
Almost all of open source projects suffer from a lack of good material
for a new developer coming into the project. But we are also targeting
them with the website. Some people seem to think that the Wiki is
aimed at developers and the website at users - others seem to have the
opposite opinion. The result is that 1) the website has no link to the
wiki that I can ever find so how would anyone know about it? 2) Both
the website and the wiki are very poor amalgamations of multiple sets
of data targeting diifferent audiences and the result is that neither
one is effective in its objective.

Several people have offered to tackle updates to the website with
varying degrees of success. Some have had issues because they were
developers and developers tend to do poorly at such design. Some have
had issues because they were designers and were not so good at
actually implementing their designs. Others have simply run out of
time or have met with resistance and thus given up. I don't believe
the poor quality of the site and the wiki are a result of someone's
desire for a low quality face but a reflection of the fact that almost
none of us have all three: 1) design skill 2) developer skill 3) time
to tackle the massive overhaul it would require.

--Greg

>
> God bless,        Barry.
>
> --
> From Barry Drake (The Revd) Health and Healing advisor to the East
> Midlands Synod of the United Reformed Church.  See
> http://www.urc5.org.uk/index for information about the synod, and
> http://www.urc5.org.uk/?q=node/703 for the Synod Healing pages.
>
> Replies - [hidden email]
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sword-devel mailing list: [hidden email]
> http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel
> Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page

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Re: [sword-support] Video tutorials

Matěj Cepl
In reply to this post by Barry Drake-4
On 3.4.2012 16:01, Barry Drake wrote:
> The second one listed, Xiphos, is the product you want for Windows or
> Linux.
 >
> It is well documented. No videos, but you can read the user's manual here:
> http://xiphos.org/manual/ (it has pictures of the app, making it easier
> reading).

I am not a Windows user, so just a question ... what's better Xiphos or
Bibletime for Windows? (maybe we should list both as to avoid a civil
war, if it is point of contest)

But yes, I would like to have user-oriented "Download here" website as
default Sword site (with  buttons for Windows, Mac, Linux/{Gnome, KDE},
iOS, Android, and http://www.crosswire.org/study/). As for developers, I
believe just a link to wiki should be enough ... if you are a developer
you should understand the wiki's frontpage; it is not so bad after all.

Blessings,

Matěj

--
http://www.ceplovi.cz/matej/, Jabber: mcepl<at>ceplovi.cz
GPG Finger: 89EF 4BC6 288A BF43 1BAB  25C3 E09F EF25 D964 84AC

The ratio of literacy to illiteracy is a constant, but nowadays
the illiterates can read.
     -- Alberto Moravia


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Re: [sword-support] Video tutorials

Barry Drake-4
On 03/04/12 17:58, Matěj Cepl wrote:
> I am not a Windows user, so just a question ... what's better Xiphos
> or Bibletime for Windows? (maybe we should list both as to avoid a
> civil war, if it is point of contest)

Both look virtually the same under Windows as under your favourite
Linux.  Neither is 'better', it's purely a matter of which one fits the
way the user works.  Xiphos fits my work style very well, but until
Xiphos has full av11n support (quite soon now), I am mainly using
Bibletime.  I wouldn't say either is better, just different.  
BibleDesktop is another good alternative ...  I'd really like to see the
web-page encourage the would-be user to try them all and settle for the
one that suits them.  Maybe we could list the main features of each.  I
seem to remember a wiki some years ago that attempted to do just that.  
It will be well out of date by now.

Features like the ability to set up several free-floating windows with
different text in each, is a feature I have used a lot.  It only exists
in Xiphos.  When preparing a sermon, it is neat to be able to have each
of the readings for the day in places where I can move them about ....  
Others with different uses will really want some of the main features of
one of the other programs ...  it's horses for courses really.

We could also stress the fact that you only need one collection of
modules for all the installed front-ends.

God bless,        Barry.

--
 From Barry Drake (The Revd) Health and Healing advisor to the East
Midlands Synod of the United Reformed Church.  See
http://www.urc5.org.uk/index for information about the synod, and
http://www.urc5.org.uk/?q=node/703 for the Synod Healing pages.

Replies - [hidden email]


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Re: [sword-support] Video tutorials

DM Smith-5
In reply to this post by Barry Drake-4
Just a friendly reminder. Those that post to sword-support have an expectation of privacy. When we cross-post to sword-devel and don't remove the user's name and especially their email, we don't meet that expectation.

The sword-support is not archived on the internet. Sword-devel is.

In Him,
        DM

On Apr 3, 2012, at 10:01 AM, Barry Drake wrote:

> Hi there .....  I've been exchanging e-mails with Gary North.  It has not been an easy process, but somehow I've kept my patience.  The first e-mail to sword-support said something like 'Your program doesn't work .... '  I've had to drag information from Gary a word at a time - literally.  However, patience has paid off, and I forward his last e-mail.
>
> The program that caused all the grief is of course the notorious 'Sword Project for Windows'.  Please please please consider demoting it seriously on the web site.  I've corresponded with many new users who are frustrated and almost lost to Sword entirely because of their first impressions.  Please consider putting Xiphos and BibleTime at the top of the list of Windows programs and hiding the legacy program somewhat lower down the list!  I hope this does not offend - but what is said in the message below is a summary of a lot of views I have tried to respond to.
>
> I'd appreciate Peter's take on this as he has done far more than I have on the Sword Support list recently.
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: RE: [sword-support] Video tutorials
> Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 08:46:24 -0400
> From: Gary North <[hidden email]>
> Reply-To: <[hidden email]>
> To: 'Barry Drake' <[hidden email]>
>
>
>
> A few minutes ago, one of my site's members -- a programmer -- posted this.
> It pretty much sums it up.
>
>
>
> Yes, I had forgotten how unusable the site really is. The site I linked to
> is the main API site. It is an open source project that started 13 years ago
> to provide an opensource Bible software engine, so yes, run by programmers.
> I suffer from the same disease.
>
> When you click on the Software link, it lists all the projects that use the
> API. The first software application listed, is useless, and they stopped
> adding features for it in 2008. Its existence is for testing the API. They
> should never had listed it.
>
> The second one listed, Xiphos, is the product you want for Windows or Linux.
> It is well documented. No videos, but you can read the user's manual here:
> http://xiphos.org/manual/ (it has pictures of the app, making it easier
> reading).
>
> MacSword (for the Mac) does not appear to be as well documented (no
> pictures, no obvious link to a manual) and only documents how to download
> Bibles, and Commentaries.
>
> The iPhone app remains true to Apples principles (cute not helpful)
>
> The documentation for the Android app is nonexistent. I use the Android app,
> but I have used this software for years. You have to go into settings and
> click on "Download Documents" to get Bibles and commentaries, not intuitive.
>
> I've had my head in the sands for so long in programming, it never crossed
> my mind how unusable the site is, and I have used it for years. Thanks for
> the heads up, Dr. North.
>
> Now I need to do some soul searching and consider doing screencast videos
> for some of the project's software.
>
> ________________________________
> To subscribe to my free Tip of the Week, click here:
> http://www.GaryNorth.com/public/department54.cfm
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Barry Drake [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2012 8:06 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [sword-support] Video tutorials
>
> On 03/04/12 12:52, Gary North wrote:
>> Sorry, This is techiebabble.  I may invest some money to provide videos.
>
> I'm really sorry my explanation is not clear.  Please tell me how to make it
> clearer.  I  thought my question about which Sword program you are using is
> a fairly jargon-free request.  The other thing I referred to is an item that
> appears somewhere in a menu in every Sword program - it is called 'module
> manager', or sometimes 'bookshelf', and our term for a bible or a commentary
> etc is a 'module'.
>
> I'd love to be able to help or to point you in the direction of help if only
> you will give me more information.  Usually, there is a 'help->about' menu
> item in  the program.  This would tell you what I need to know.
>
> God bless,        Barry.
>
> --
> Barry Drake is a member of the the Ubuntu Advertising team.
> http://ubuntuadverts.org/
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sword-devel mailing list: [hidden email]
> http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel
> Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page


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Websites (was: Video tutorials)

Troy A. Griffitts
In reply to this post by Barry Drake-4
To second what Greg said and to defend the last person who attempted to
meet all audiences with our website (not me), if you hit:

http://crosswire.org

Click Software
Click Windows

You get a list software for Windows.

We can't necessarily have a "Download Now" button as most projects have
chosen not to host their development work on CrossWire's server and I
won't believe they would (nor blame them for not doing so) keep updated
Windows and Mac packages in some central CrossWire download facility.
We've had hard enough time getting news reports from everyone.  Other
OSs don't use a 'download now' from a website concept, but get their
software from a package manager (Android, iOS, Redhat, Ubuntu, etc.)

I'm not amiss to giving other Windows frontends more prominence, but
it's hard to decide how: BPBible, Bible Desktop, Bibletime, Xiphos,
XulSWORD (listed ASCIIbetically) all run fine on Windows and complaining
that everyone only downloads BibleCS because it is listed first would
translate to a valid complaint for any 2-n listed project.

I too am generally frustrated with both our wiki and our main website.
The wiki has so much misinformation and bad examples and is anything but
concise, and the main website is generally unattractive and doesn't have
the latest bits of useful information which are on the wiki.

I'm not blaming anyone, as Greg has said, no one wants this.  I very
seldom take the time to read the wiki with the intent to fix things.  I
end up finding them when I intend to refer someone to the wiki and read
the information I'm about to link to.  Some who edit the wiki don't have
the history or expertise.  Many who have the history or expertise don't
have time to edit the wiki.  It's a vicious circle.  Everyone has good
intentions.

I'm open for suggestions, but every couple years we go through this
iteration of a wave of frustration about our websites and someone steps
up and revamps some things, and no one is happy and we move on for
another couple years.

Troy



On 04/03/2012 07:22 PM, Barry Drake wrote:

> On 03/04/12 17:58, Matěj Cepl wrote:
>> I am not a Windows user, so just a question ... what's better Xiphos
>> or Bibletime for Windows? (maybe we should list both as to avoid a
>> civil war, if it is point of contest)
>
> Both look virtually the same under Windows as under your favourite
> Linux. Neither is 'better', it's purely a matter of which one fits the
> way the user works. Xiphos fits my work style very well, but until
> Xiphos has full av11n support (quite soon now), I am mainly using
> Bibletime. I wouldn't say either is better, just different. BibleDesktop
> is another good alternative ... I'd really like to see the web-page
> encourage the would-be user to try them all and settle for the one that
> suits them. Maybe we could list the main features of each. I seem to
> remember a wiki some years ago that attempted to do just that. It will
> be well out of date by now.
>
> Features like the ability to set up several free-floating windows with
> different text in each, is a feature I have used a lot. It only exists
> in Xiphos. When preparing a sermon, it is neat to be able to have each
> of the readings for the day in places where I can move them about ....
> Others with different uses will really want some of the main features of
> one of the other programs ... it's horses for courses really.
>
> We could also stress the fact that you only need one collection of
> modules for all the installed front-ends.
>
> God bless, Barry.
>


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Re: Websites (was: Video tutorials)

Greg Hellings
I lack any artistic or design ability whatsoever. However, as a
full-time web developer and now even being a full-time Java web
developer (as the site is currently written in) I am willing to do the
technical implementation of a site if someone wants to whip up a
wireframe and site tree structure that people agree on.

I wish any such adventurous person the best of luck with the last
phrase in the preceding sentence.

--Greg

On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 1:53 PM, Troy A. Griffitts <[hidden email]> wrote:

> To second what Greg said and to defend the last person who attempted to meet
> all audiences with our website (not me), if you hit:
>
> http://crosswire.org
>
> Click Software
> Click Windows
>
> You get a list software for Windows.
>
> We can't necessarily have a "Download Now" button as most projects have
> chosen not to host their development work on CrossWire's server and I won't
> believe they would (nor blame them for not doing so) keep updated Windows
> and Mac packages in some central CrossWire download facility. We've had hard
> enough time getting news reports from everyone.  Other OSs don't use a
> 'download now' from a website concept, but get their software from a package
> manager (Android, iOS, Redhat, Ubuntu, etc.)
>
> I'm not amiss to giving other Windows frontends more prominence, but it's
> hard to decide how: BPBible, Bible Desktop, Bibletime, Xiphos, XulSWORD
> (listed ASCIIbetically) all run fine on Windows and complaining that
> everyone only downloads BibleCS because it is listed first would translate
> to a valid complaint for any 2-n listed project.
>
> I too am generally frustrated with both our wiki and our main website. The
> wiki has so much misinformation and bad examples and is anything but
> concise, and the main website is generally unattractive and doesn't have the
> latest bits of useful information which are on the wiki.
>
> I'm not blaming anyone, as Greg has said, no one wants this.  I very seldom
> take the time to read the wiki with the intent to fix things.  I end up
> finding them when I intend to refer someone to the wiki and read the
> information I'm about to link to.  Some who edit the wiki don't have the
> history or expertise.  Many who have the history or expertise don't have
> time to edit the wiki.  It's a vicious circle.  Everyone has good
> intentions.
>
> I'm open for suggestions, but every couple years we go through this
> iteration of a wave of frustration about our websites and someone steps up
> and revamps some things, and no one is happy and we move on for another
> couple years.
>
> Troy
>
>
>
> On 04/03/2012 07:22 PM, Barry Drake wrote:
>>
>> On 03/04/12 17:58, Matěj Cepl wrote:
>>>
>>> I am not a Windows user, so just a question ... what's better Xiphos
>>> or Bibletime for Windows? (maybe we should list both as to avoid a
>>> civil war, if it is point of contest)
>>
>>
>> Both look virtually the same under Windows as under your favourite
>> Linux. Neither is 'better', it's purely a matter of which one fits the
>> way the user works. Xiphos fits my work style very well, but until
>> Xiphos has full av11n support (quite soon now), I am mainly using
>> Bibletime. I wouldn't say either is better, just different. BibleDesktop
>> is another good alternative ... I'd really like to see the web-page
>> encourage the would-be user to try them all and settle for the one that
>> suits them. Maybe we could list the main features of each. I seem to
>> remember a wiki some years ago that attempted to do just that. It will
>> be well out of date by now.
>>
>> Features like the ability to set up several free-floating windows with
>> different text in each, is a feature I have used a lot. It only exists
>> in Xiphos. When preparing a sermon, it is neat to be able to have each
>> of the readings for the day in places where I can move them about ....
>> Others with different uses will really want some of the main features of
>> one of the other programs ... it's horses for courses really.
>>
>> We could also stress the fact that you only need one collection of
>> modules for all the installed front-ends.
>>
>> God bless, Barry.
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sword-devel mailing list: [hidden email]
> http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel
> Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page

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Re: Websites

Barry Drake-4
In reply to this post by Troy A. Griffitts
On 03/04/12 19:53, Troy A. Griffitts wrote:
> To second what Greg said and to defend the last person who attempted
> to meet all audiences with our website (not me), if you hit:
> http://crosswire.org   Click Software  Click Windows  You get a list
> software for Windows.

Oh, I agree - and that would be OK - BUT the hit you get from the search
engines is usually: http://www.crosswire.org/sword/index.jsp and the
software link from there takes you to:
http://www.crosswire.org/sword/software/index.jsp which only offers
BibleCS as a Windows program.  This is why the queries on sword-support
simply say 'your program', and don't understand what I am talking about
when I say 'which program?'.  They have only been aware of one!  If
those links got rearranged, life would be just a bit easier.

God bless,        Barry.

--
 From Barry Drake (The Revd) Health and Healing advisor to the East
Midlands Synod of the United Reformed Church.  See
http://www.urc5.org.uk/index for information about the synod, and
http://www.urc5.org.uk/?q=node/703 for the Synod Healing pages.

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Re: Websites (was: Video tutorials)

David Haslam
In reply to this post by Troy A. Griffitts
One thing would improve our website considerably.

A more unified "Brand Image" and web-page style.

The stark contrast in going from
http://www.crosswire.org/
to
http://www.crosswire.org/sword/modules/ 
(and related pages)
illustrates what I'm referring to.

It makes us appear incompetent to the outside world.

12 months ago Peter enlisted a friendly web designer to have a go at improving things.
This fell by the wayside, probably because someone thought the changes were too "drastic" and deviated too much from how we began.

Even going from
http://www.crosswire.org/
to
http://www.crosswire.org/gobible/
with my subsequent redirect to http://www.crosswire.org/gobible/newpage/ 
involves a color change to the horizontal dividers, etc.

To a large extent, these core problems arise because we're not a top down organization.
We're all volunteers with different areas of expertise and interests.
Some have less time than others to thing about these matters, by virtue of having day jobs or being in full time studies.

If we were a business, then the CEO or management team would make firm decisions about such matters, and provide or allocate the resources to implement the company policies. I've worked most of my engineering career in a large multinational, so I've observed first hand how these things work out.

Again, because many of us are programmers or engineers, few of us have strong experience in marketing, nor possess the skills that go with the job description. Just because all our products are free of charge doesn't mean that we don't need to be active in marketing them.

Many of our applications are better in some aspects than other Bible Study software out in the market place, yet getting them recognized is an uphill task. Just one example:

Our mobile (smart phone) apps do not require remote access to a streaming text server.
They don't even "call home" with usage statistics.  This is quite common among other products.

So for areas where internet access is patchy or restricted, we have a competitive edge in terms of how our applications operate. Once installed, modules do not need a continuous connection to keep working.

We need to build on our strengths. Anyone care to do a SWOT analysis?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SWOT_analysis

David

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Re: Websites

David Haslam
In reply to this post by Barry Drake-4
OK - following Barrie's last reply to Troy...

It would help to decouple the website dependency linkage between our modules and the SWORD front-end.

Modules are common to all our applications (except Go Bible), so the URL for modules should be at a higher level than it is now, a subsidiary of the SWORD project.
i.e. They should be at
http://crosswire.org/modules/
Don't go there - the page doesn't exist - this is just me thinking while I'm typing.

Making this change would provide an opportunity to restyle the modules pages to the newer appearance.
We can then decide what to do about how BibleCS is presented to the outside world as a separate task.

David
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Re: Websites (was: Video tutorials)

Greg Hellings
In reply to this post by David Haslam
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 3:13 PM, David Haslam <[hidden email]> wrote:
> One thing would improve our website considerably.
>
> A more unified "Brand Image" and web-page style.

My understanding is that the varying site styles were purposeful. That
way it's easy to differentiate that "SWORD" and "GoBible" are
different brands. If I go to www.ford.com and www.lincoln.com the two
are markedly different websites even though they are the same company.
They are marketed as different brands within the same umbrella
corporation but they want to maintain a distinct identity.

I don't think the difference from www.crosswire.org/ to
www.crosswire.org/sword/ is that big of a deal. I think the biggest
problem is that the /sword/ site is itself fraught with problems of
antiquated content, obtuse navigation, and difficulty updating.

--Greg

>
> The stark contrast in going from
> http://www.crosswire.org/
> to
> http://www.crosswire.org/sword/modules/
> (and related pages)
> illustrates what I'm referring to.
>
> It makes us appear incompetent to the outside world.
>
> 12 months ago Peter enlisted a friendly web designer to have a go at
> improving things.
> This fell by the wayside, probably because someone thought the changes were
> too "drastic" and deviated too much from how we began.
>
> Even going from
> http://www.crosswire.org/
> to
> http://www.crosswire.org/gobible/
> with my subsequent redirect to http://www.crosswire.org/gobible/newpage/
> involves a color change to the horizontal dividers, etc.
>
> To a large extent, these core problems arise because we're not a top down
> organization.
> We're all volunteers with different areas of expertise and interests.
> Some have less time than others to thing about these matters, by virtue of
> having day jobs or being in full time studies.
>
> If we were a business, then the CEO or management team would make firm
> decisions about such matters, and provide or allocate the resources to
> implement the company policies. I've worked most of my engineering career in
> a large multinational, so I've observed first hand how these things work
> out.
>
> Again, because many of us are programmers or engineers, few of us have
> strong experience in marketing, nor possess the skills that go with the job
> description. Just because all our products are free of charge doesn't mean
> that we don't need to be active in marketing them.
>
> Many of our applications are better in some aspects than other Bible Study
> software out in the market place, yet getting them recognized is an uphill
> task. Just one example:
>
> Our mobile (smart phone) apps do not require remote access to a streaming
> text server.
> They don't even "call home" with usage statistics.  This is quite common
> among other products.
>
> So for areas where internet access is patchy or restricted, we have a
> competitive edge in terms of how our applications operate. Once installed,
> modules do not need a continuous connection to keep working.
>
> We need to build on our strengths. Anyone care to do a SWOT analysis?
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SWOT_analysis
>
> David
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://sword-dev.350566.n4.nabble.com/Re-sword-support-Video-tutorials-tp4528871p4530049.html
> Sent from the SWORD Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> sword-devel mailing list: [hidden email]
> http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel
> Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page

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Re: Websites

Troy A. Griffitts
In reply to this post by Barry Drake-4
Noted and fixed (at least, within my lack of aesthetic skillset ability).

On 04/03/2012 10:03 PM, Barry Drake wrote:

> On 03/04/12 19:53, Troy A. Griffitts wrote:
>> To second what Greg said and to defend the last person who attempted
>> to meet all audiences with our website (not me), if you hit:
>> http://crosswire.org Click Software Click Windows You get a list
>> software for Windows.
>
> Oh, I agree - and that would be OK - BUT the hit you get from the search
> engines is usually: http://www.crosswire.org/sword/index.jsp and the
> software link from there takes you to:
> http://www.crosswire.org/sword/software/index.jsp which only offers
> BibleCS as a Windows program. This is why the queries on sword-support
> simply say 'your program', and don't understand what I am talking about
> when I say 'which program?'. They have only been aware of one! If those
> links got rearranged, life would be just a bit easier.
>
> God bless, Barry.
>


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Re: Websites

Barry Drake-4
On 03/04/12 21:41, Troy A. Griffitts wrote:
> Noted and fixed (at least, within my lack of aesthetic skillset ability).

Thanks Troy.  That's 110% better already.

God bless,        Barry.

--
 From Barry Drake (The Revd) Health and Healing advisor to the East
Midlands Synod of the United Reformed Church.  See
http://www.urc5.org.uk/index for information about the synod, and
http://www.urc5.org.uk/?q=node/703 for the Synod Healing pages.

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Re: Websites (was: Video tutorials)

Patrick Sebastian Zimmermann
In reply to this post by Greg Hellings
Hello,

the following are mostly random thoughts off the top of my head while browsing
the crosswire.org sites for ten minutes.

I think that thinking about the target groups of the different pages can be
helpful.

The way I understand this, the sword project is effectively a library, thus a
developer tool. So the target audience of /sword are developers. The
introductory text on /sword sort of supports this impression.

The crosswire page tries to show the different projects under the crosswire
umbrella, including the affiliated sword frontends and gobible. So this seems
like an end user page to me. The nice overview of the different applications on
the crosswire main site supports my impression.


I think most problems arise because end users browse /sword. So making this
distinction a lot clearer might be a solution.

A banner in a prominent location: "If you are not a developer go to
crosswire.org" might solve that problem.

Also I would not directly link the "The Sword Project" button to the /sword
site. That makes it hard to understand the relation between the two pages.
Putting a sub page with an introductory text (perhaps the text from the "Home"
tab) will make it clear that there is a separate site that deals specifically
with the sword library.

I think the only link to the wiki (which I think is the part of the website
with the by far most content) is on the FAQ of crosswire.org at the very
bottom. I think putting a link to the wiki on /sword might be a good idea.

Backlinks from /sword to crosswire.org should be prohibited (it's a separate
site if I understood this right). So the FAQ link on /sword should be removed.

Given that /sword is targeted at developers the "Developers" tab should be
removed and the information presented directly on the page.

The "Publishers" tab should go to crosswire.org, since they are no developers
and not interested in a library.

Greetings,
Patrick Zimmermann

On Tuesday, 3. April 2012 22:31:38 Greg Hellings wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 3:13 PM, David Haslam <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > One thing would improve our website considerably.
> >
> > A more unified "Brand Image" and web-page style.
>
> My understanding is that the varying site styles were purposeful. That
> way it's easy to differentiate that "SWORD" and "GoBible" are
> different brands. If I go to www.ford.com and www.lincoln.com the two
> are markedly different websites even though they are the same company.
> They are marketed as different brands within the same umbrella
> corporation but they want to maintain a distinct identity.
>
> I don't think the difference from www.crosswire.org/ to
> www.crosswire.org/sword/ is that big of a deal. I think the biggest
> problem is that the /sword/ site is itself fraught with problems of
> antiquated content, obtuse navigation, and difficulty updating.
>
> --Greg
>
> > The stark contrast in going from
> > http://www.crosswire.org/
> > to
> > http://www.crosswire.org/sword/modules/
> > (and related pages)
> > illustrates what I'm referring to.
> >
> > It makes us appear incompetent to the outside world.
> >
> > 12 months ago Peter enlisted a friendly web designer to have a go at
> > improving things.
> > This fell by the wayside, probably because someone thought the changes
> > were too "drastic" and deviated too much from how we began.
> >
> > Even going from
> > http://www.crosswire.org/
> > to
> > http://www.crosswire.org/gobible/
> > with my subsequent redirect to http://www.crosswire.org/gobible/newpage/
> > involves a color change to the horizontal dividers, etc.
> >
> > To a large extent, these core problems arise because we're not a top down
> > organization.
> > We're all volunteers with different areas of expertise and interests.
> > Some have less time than others to thing about these matters, by virtue
> > of having day jobs or being in full time studies.
> >
> > If we were a business, then the CEO or management team would make firm
> > decisions about such matters, and provide or allocate the resources to
> > implement the company policies. I've worked most of my engineering career
> > in a large multinational, so I've observed first hand how these things
> > work out.
> >
> > Again, because many of us are programmers or engineers, few of us have
> > strong experience in marketing, nor possess the skills that go with the
> > job description. Just because all our products are free of charge
> > doesn't mean that we don't need to be active in marketing them.
> >
> > Many of our applications are better in some aspects than other Bible
> > Study software out in the market place, yet getting them recognized is
> > an uphill task. Just one example:
> >
> > Our mobile (smart phone) apps do not require remote access to a streaming
> > text server.
> > They don't even "call home" with usage statistics.  This is quite common
> > among other products.
> >
> > So for areas where internet access is patchy or restricted, we have a
> > competitive edge in terms of how our applications operate. Once
> > installed, modules do not need a continuous connection to keep working.
> >
> > We need to build on our strengths. Anyone care to do a SWOT analysis?
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SWOT_analysis
> >
> > David
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > View this message in context:
> > http://sword-dev.350566.n4.nabble.com/Re-sword-support-Video-tutorials-t
> > p4528871p4530049.html Sent from the SWORD Dev mailing list archive at
> > Nabble.com.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > sword-devel mailing list: [hidden email]
> > http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel
> > Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page
>
> _______________________________________________
> sword-devel mailing list: [hidden email]
> http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel
> Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page

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Re: Websites

Chris Little-2
In reply to this post by David Haslam


On 4/3/12 1:13 PM, David Haslam wrote:

> One thing would improve our website considerably.
>
> A more unified "Brand Image" and web-page style.
>
> The stark contrast in going from
> http://www.crosswire.org/
> to
> http://www.crosswire.org/sword/modules/
> (and related pages)
> illustrates what I'm referring to.
>
> It makes us appear incompetent to the outside world.

http://www.forministry.com/
vs.
http://www.americanbible.org/

Stark contrast, ergo ABS "appear incompetent to the outside world".

http://www.biblesociety.org.uk/
vs.
http://shop.biblesociety.org.uk/

Stark contrast -> BFBS "appear incompetent to the outside world".

http://www.libronix.com/page.aspx
vs.
http://www.logos.com/

Stark contrast... apparently everyone is doing it wrong.


CrossWire is an organization with multiple "products". The SWORD Project
is one of those "products". Having dissimilar themes on their respective
pages enhances brand identity for disparate brands that target different
audiences.

--Chris

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Re: Websites

Chris Little-2
In reply to this post by Troy A. Griffitts


On 4/3/12 11:53 AM, Troy A. Griffitts wrote:
> I'm not amiss to giving other Windows frontends more prominence, but
> it's hard to decide how: BPBible, Bible Desktop, Bibletime, Xiphos,
> XulSWORD (listed ASCIIbetically) all run fine on Windows and complaining
> that everyone only downloads BibleCS because it is listed first would
> translate to a valid complaint for any 2-n listed project.

Randomly sort!

If you're more ambitious, you could sort non-randomly based on up/down
votes (a la StackOverflow or Digg) or release recency, but random
sorting would take a couple minutes to implement vs. much more time for
reasoned sorting.

--Chris

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Re: Websites

Chris Little-2
In reply to this post by David Haslam


On 4/3/12 1:22 PM, David Haslam wrote:

> OK - following Barrie's last reply to Troy...
>
> It would help to decouple the website dependency linkage between our modules
> and the SWORD front-end.
>
> Modules are common to all our applications (except Go Bible), so the URL for
> modules should be at a higher level than it is now, a subsidiary of the
> SWORD project.
> i.e. They should be at
> http://crosswire.org/modules/
> Don't go there - the page doesn't exist - this is just me thinking while I'm
> typing.

Modules are specifically part of The SWORD Project, though, which is why
they're in The SWORD Project's pages. They aren't separately a CrossWire
product or used by any non-Sword CrossWire product.

--Chris


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Re: Websites

Daniel Owens
In reply to this post by Patrick Sebastian Zimmermann
I like Patrick's idea of targeting different groups with different
pages. What if www.crosswire.org were a very simple page with very
little text - just a brief description of CrossWire (like the one we
already have), perhaps a graphic cycling through screenshots of various
front-ends, and rather large links targeted to different groups:

Read the Bible Online
Download Bible Software (Windows, Mac, Linux, and various mobile devices)
Build your SWORD Library (Download the ESV, NET, KJV, and Bibles and
other resources in more than x # of languages)
Volunteer with SWORD (Contribute code, translate applications, create
modules, and more)
Learn More or Get Help

In any case, the front page could be simplified to make it easier for
various constituencies to quickly identify where to find what they are
looking for.

Daniel

On 04/03/2012 04:44 PM, Patrick Zimmermann wrote:

> Hello,
>
> the following are mostly random thoughts off the top of my head while browsing
> the crosswire.org sites for ten minutes.
>
> I think that thinking about the target groups of the different pages can be
> helpful.
>
> The way I understand this, the sword project is effectively a library, thus a
> developer tool. So the target audience of /sword are developers. The
> introductory text on /sword sort of supports this impression.
>
> The crosswire page tries to show the different projects under the crosswire
> umbrella, including the affiliated sword frontends and gobible. So this seems
> like an end user page to me. The nice overview of the different applications on
> the crosswire main site supports my impression.
>
>
> I think most problems arise because end users browse /sword. So making this
> distinction a lot clearer might be a solution.
>
> A banner in a prominent location: "If you are not a developer go to
> crosswire.org" might solve that problem.
>
> Also I would not directly link the "The Sword Project" button to the /sword
> site. That makes it hard to understand the relation between the two pages.
> Putting a sub page with an introductory text (perhaps the text from the "Home"
> tab) will make it clear that there is a separate site that deals specifically
> with the sword library.
>
> I think the only link to the wiki (which I think is the part of the website
> with the by far most content) is on the FAQ of crosswire.org at the very
> bottom. I think putting a link to the wiki on /sword might be a good idea.
>
> Backlinks from /sword to crosswire.org should be prohibited (it's a separate
> site if I understood this right). So the FAQ link on /sword should be removed.
>
> Given that /sword is targeted at developers the "Developers" tab should be
> removed and the information presented directly on the page.
>
> The "Publishers" tab should go to crosswire.org, since they are no developers
> and not interested in a library.
>
> Greetings,
> Patrick Zimmermann
>
> On Tuesday, 3. April 2012 22:31:38 Greg Hellings wrote:
>> On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 3:13 PM, David Haslam<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>>> One thing would improve our website considerably.
>>>
>>> A more unified "Brand Image" and web-page style.
>> My understanding is that the varying site styles were purposeful. That
>> way it's easy to differentiate that "SWORD" and "GoBible" are
>> different brands. If I go to www.ford.com and www.lincoln.com the two
>> are markedly different websites even though they are the same company.
>> They are marketed as different brands within the same umbrella
>> corporation but they want to maintain a distinct identity.
>>
>> I don't think the difference from www.crosswire.org/ to
>> www.crosswire.org/sword/ is that big of a deal. I think the biggest
>> problem is that the /sword/ site is itself fraught with problems of
>> antiquated content, obtuse navigation, and difficulty updating.
>>
>> --Greg
>>
>>> The stark contrast in going from
>>> http://www.crosswire.org/
>>> to
>>> http://www.crosswire.org/sword/modules/
>>> (and related pages)
>>> illustrates what I'm referring to.
>>>
>>> It makes us appear incompetent to the outside world.
>>>
>>> 12 months ago Peter enlisted a friendly web designer to have a go at
>>> improving things.
>>> This fell by the wayside, probably because someone thought the changes
>>> were too "drastic" and deviated too much from how we began.
>>>
>>> Even going from
>>> http://www.crosswire.org/
>>> to
>>> http://www.crosswire.org/gobible/
>>> with my subsequent redirect to http://www.crosswire.org/gobible/newpage/
>>> involves a color change to the horizontal dividers, etc.
>>>
>>> To a large extent, these core problems arise because we're not a top down
>>> organization.
>>> We're all volunteers with different areas of expertise and interests.
>>> Some have less time than others to thing about these matters, by virtue
>>> of having day jobs or being in full time studies.
>>>
>>> If we were a business, then the CEO or management team would make firm
>>> decisions about such matters, and provide or allocate the resources to
>>> implement the company policies. I've worked most of my engineering career
>>> in a large multinational, so I've observed first hand how these things
>>> work out.
>>>
>>> Again, because many of us are programmers or engineers, few of us have
>>> strong experience in marketing, nor possess the skills that go with the
>>> job description. Just because all our products are free of charge
>>> doesn't mean that we don't need to be active in marketing them.
>>>
>>> Many of our applications are better in some aspects than other Bible
>>> Study software out in the market place, yet getting them recognized is
>>> an uphill task. Just one example:
>>>
>>> Our mobile (smart phone) apps do not require remote access to a streaming
>>> text server.
>>> They don't even "call home" with usage statistics.  This is quite common
>>> among other products.
>>>
>>> So for areas where internet access is patchy or restricted, we have a
>>> competitive edge in terms of how our applications operate. Once
>>> installed, modules do not need a continuous connection to keep working.
>>>
>>> We need to build on our strengths. Anyone care to do a SWOT analysis?
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SWOT_analysis
>>>
>>> David
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> View this message in context:
>>> http://sword-dev.350566.n4.nabble.com/Re-sword-support-Video-tutorials-t
>>> p4528871p4530049.html Sent from the SWORD Dev mailing list archive at
>>> Nabble.com.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> sword-devel mailing list: [hidden email]
>>> http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel
>>> Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page
>> _______________________________________________
>> sword-devel mailing list: [hidden email]
>> http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel
>> Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page
> _______________________________________________
> sword-devel mailing list: [hidden email]
> http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel
> Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page
>

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