I implore you...

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I implore you...

Greg Hellings
...please just release 1.7.0 now. 15 months ago Troy promised it would be released the following month. Some things have happened that made it a bit difficult, but 15 MORE months beyond the already-too-long time is ridiculous. Please just release it as it is and then make regular bug-fix releases to address each of these outstanding bugs.

Please, stop with the "one more bug" or "one more thing" or "next week/month, I  promise". Just release it. Xiphos is unable to make a new release because it has been repeatedly promised that "very soon now" a new Sword would be released, so the application has committed to the current SVN of Sword. BibleTime has support for several of the existing Sword features in a development branch but cannot make a release with that support because of a commitment to only supporting released Sword versions.

Troy, you've said one reason you procrastinate releases is because you don't like going through the release process. I've offered twice now - with no response - to manage a stable branch of the library and make regular bug-fix releases from that while main trunk development continues onwards. With git, I already maintain such functionality on the github mirror of CrossWire - doing it for a stable branch would not be more difficult. Maybe someone else would also be willing if you don't want me to do that.

But please, can we just have a release? 'Twould be nice.

--Greg

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Re: I implore you...

Jaak Ristioja-2
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi!

On 09.06.2013 18:09, Greg Hellings wrote:

> ...please just release 1.7.0 now. 15 months ago Troy promised it
> would be released the following month. Some things have happened
> that made it a bit difficult, but 15 MORE months beyond the
> already-too-long time is ridiculous. Please just release it as it
> is and then make regular bug-fix releases to address each of these
> outstanding bugs.
>
> Please, stop with the "one more bug" or "one more thing" or "next
> week/month, I  promise". Just release it. Xiphos is unable to make
> a new release because it has been repeatedly promised that "very
> soon now" a new Sword would be released, so the application has
> committed to the current SVN of Sword. BibleTime has support for
> several of the existing Sword features in a development branch but
> cannot make a release with that support because of a commitment to
> only supporting released Sword versions.
>
> Troy, you've said one reason you procrastinate releases is because
> you don't like going through the release process. I've offered
> twice now - with no response - to manage a stable branch of the
> library and make regular bug-fix releases from that while main
> trunk development continues onwards. With git, I already maintain
> such functionality on the github mirror of CrossWire - doing it for
> a stable branch would not be more difficult. Maybe someone else
> would also be willing if you don't want me to do that.
>
> But please, can we just have a release? 'Twould be nice.

I second that.

And it's just getting ugly that other developers are being ignored in
many matters regarding the Sword library.

Lately, I've been thinking about this many times. The way I see it,
unless the situation for this community changes rapidly for the better
this summer, the next feature-release of BibleTime will probably link
exclusively against a fork of the Sword library. We also hope to
cooperate with other Sword projects in this matter.

This is not meant as a personal offense towards Troy or others. But if
our attempts to influence a release of a new version of Sword keep
failing, the rest of the community must take decisive action
themselves. We'd rather not fork, so please mitigate this. The clock
is ticking.

Everyone, please consider praying on these matters.


Blessings,
Jaak
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Re: I implore you...

Troy A. Griffitts
I don't think other developers are getting ignored.  Please be
specific.  Just because I don't accept a patch doesn't mean a developer
is getting ignored.

In fact, many times trying to make this release, when people complain
that we need something fixed for this release, I ask for a simple
testsuite addition to show the problem and desired result, and don't get
a response.

I don't believe the problem is as you think it is Jaak.  Many people
whine about this or that. Not all whine for things to go in the same
direction.

Everyone whines for a release but not everyone is willing to help submit
tests and then fixes for those tests.

You stated that you would get involved to help, but you only submit
things for which I previously told you I wasn't interested in accepting
(worrying about pedantic warnings whose changes often make the code less
readable and do nothing to improve any of the real problems for the end
user.  Though I do appreciate a few of the warning fixes you submitted,
a few being actual bug fixed too (thank you)-- I'm just ranting right now.)

I have no excuses, but neither does anyone else.

End of rant.

Troy


On 06/09/2013 09:56 PM, Jaak Ristioja wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Hi!
>
> On 09.06.2013 18:09, Greg Hellings wrote:
>> ...please just release 1.7.0 now. 15 months ago Troy promised it
>> would be released the following month. Some things have happened
>> that made it a bit difficult, but 15 MORE months beyond the
>> already-too-long time is ridiculous. Please just release it as it
>> is and then make regular bug-fix releases to address each of these
>> outstanding bugs.
>>
>> Please, stop with the "one more bug" or "one more thing" or "next
>> week/month, I  promise". Just release it. Xiphos is unable to make
>> a new release because it has been repeatedly promised that "very
>> soon now" a new Sword would be released, so the application has
>> committed to the current SVN of Sword. BibleTime has support for
>> several of the existing Sword features in a development branch but
>> cannot make a release with that support because of a commitment to
>> only supporting released Sword versions.
>>
>> Troy, you've said one reason you procrastinate releases is because
>> you don't like going through the release process. I've offered
>> twice now - with no response - to manage a stable branch of the
>> library and make regular bug-fix releases from that while main
>> trunk development continues onwards. With git, I already maintain
>> such functionality on the github mirror of CrossWire - doing it for
>> a stable branch would not be more difficult. Maybe someone else
>> would also be willing if you don't want me to do that.
>>
>> But please, can we just have a release? 'Twould be nice.
> I second that.
>
> And it's just getting ugly that other developers are being ignored in
> many matters regarding the Sword library.
>
> Lately, I've been thinking about this many times. The way I see it,
> unless the situation for this community changes rapidly for the better
> this summer, the next feature-release of BibleTime will probably link
> exclusively against a fork of the Sword library. We also hope to
> cooperate with other Sword projects in this matter.
>
> This is not meant as a personal offense towards Troy or others. But if
> our attempts to influence a release of a new version of Sword keep
> failing, the rest of the community must take decisive action
> themselves. We'd rather not fork, so please mitigate this. The clock
> is ticking.
>
> Everyone, please consider praying on these matters.
>
>
> Blessings,
> Jaak
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>
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Re: I implore you...

Troy A. Griffitts
In reply to this post by Greg Hellings
:)

Is everyone happy with SVN HEAD?

I'm happy with the vspace cleanup.  Does it meet everyone else's need?

Do all the bindings build ok?  It sounded like Peter still had some troubles.

Greg, do I still need to apply a patch from you?

I've deployed HEAD for our SWORDWeb installation at: http://crosswire.org/study

I've browsed through some various locations: Gen, Matt.5+7, Ps., etc. which might cause trouble.  Most all seemed to display fairly well.


Troy


On 06/09/2013 05:09 PM, Greg Hellings wrote:
...please just release 1.7.0 now. 15 months ago Troy promised it would be released the following month. Some things have happened that made it a bit difficult, but 15 MORE months beyond the already-too-long time is ridiculous. Please just release it as it is and then make regular bug-fix releases to address each of these outstanding bugs.

Please, stop with the "one more bug" or "one more thing" or "next week/month, I  promise". Just release it. Xiphos is unable to make a new release because it has been repeatedly promised that "very soon now" a new Sword would be released, so the application has committed to the current SVN of Sword. BibleTime has support for several of the existing Sword features in a development branch but cannot make a release with that support because of a commitment to only supporting released Sword versions.

Troy, you've said one reason you procrastinate releases is because you don't like going through the release process. I've offered twice now - with no response - to manage a stable branch of the library and make regular bug-fix releases from that while main trunk development continues onwards. With git, I already maintain such functionality on the github mirror of CrossWire - doing it for a stable branch would not be more difficult. Maybe someone else would also be willing if you don't want me to do that.

But please, can we just have a release? 'Twould be nice.

--Greg


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Re: I implore you...

Troy A. Griffitts
Can anyone remember the location of a midverse section heading?  I'd like to check the display, but can't seem to remember where one is.

On 06/09/2013 10:26 PM, Troy A. Griffitts wrote:
:)

Is everyone happy with SVN HEAD?

I'm happy with the vspace cleanup.  Does it meet everyone else's need?

Do all the bindings build ok?  It sounded like Peter still had some troubles.

Greg, do I still need to apply a patch from you?

I've deployed HEAD for our SWORDWeb installation at: http://crosswire.org/study

I've browsed through some various locations: Gen, Matt.5+7, Ps., etc. which might cause trouble.  Most all seemed to display fairly well.


Troy


On 06/09/2013 05:09 PM, Greg Hellings wrote:
...please just release 1.7.0 now. 15 months ago Troy promised it would be released the following month. Some things have happened that made it a bit difficult, but 15 MORE months beyond the already-too-long time is ridiculous. Please just release it as it is and then make regular bug-fix releases to address each of these outstanding bugs.

Please, stop with the "one more bug" or "one more thing" or "next week/month, I  promise". Just release it. Xiphos is unable to make a new release because it has been repeatedly promised that "very soon now" a new Sword would be released, so the application has committed to the current SVN of Sword. BibleTime has support for several of the existing Sword features in a development branch but cannot make a release with that support because of a commitment to only supporting released Sword versions.

Troy, you've said one reason you procrastinate releases is because you don't like going through the release process. I've offered twice now - with no response - to manage a stable branch of the library and make regular bug-fix releases from that while main trunk development continues onwards. With git, I already maintain such functionality on the github mirror of CrossWire - doing it for a stable branch would not be more difficult. Maybe someone else would also be willing if you don't want me to do that.

But please, can we just have a release? 'Twould be nice.

--Greg


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Re: I implore you...

Chris Little-2
In reply to this post by Troy A. Griffitts
On 6/9/2013 1:26 PM, Troy A. Griffitts wrote:
> :)
>
> Is everyone happy with SVN HEAD?

I have one filter patch to apply/tune/test, which I can do tonight.

> Do all the bindings build ok?  It sounded like Peter still had some
> troubles.

Not bindings precisely, but I'd like to get the MSVC projects updated as
necessary, which I can also do tonight since it's really quick (if it
even needs any updates).

Along the same lines as that, I'd like at least a day or two of code
freeze so that anyone who needs to can at least test builds, bindings,
etc. on their particular platform.

--Chris


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Re: I implore you...

Jaak Ristioja-2
In reply to this post by Troy A. Griffitts
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 09.06.2013 23:21, Troy A. Griffitts wrote:

> I don't think other developers are getting ignored.  Please be
> specific.  Just because I don't accept a patch doesn't mean a
> developer is getting ignored.
>
> In fact, many times trying to make this release, when people
> complain that we need something fixed for this release, I ask for a
> simple testsuite addition to show the problem and desired result,
> and don't get a response.
>
> I don't believe the problem is as you think it is Jaak.  Many
> people whine about this or that. Not all whine for things to go in
> the same direction.
>
> Everyone whines for a release but not everyone is willing to help
> submit tests and then fixes for those tests.
>
> You stated that you would get involved to help, but you only
> submit things for which I previously told you I wasn't interested
> in accepting (worrying about pedantic warnings whose changes often
> make the code less readable and do nothing to improve any of the
> real problems for the end user.  Though I do appreciate a few of
> the warning fixes you submitted, a few being actual bug fixed too
> (thank you)-- I'm just ranting right now.)

As a BibleTime developer, I want to available tools (-Wall, -Wextra,
cppcheck, etc) to fix any errors in my code. Due to the Sword header
files which generate a lot of warnings this task is VERY inconvenient.
For example, when I compile the whole of BibleTime with GCC, I get 549
warnings from Sword headers (mostly for unused arguments) - how am I
supposed to find the warnings relevant for BibleTime? This alone often
makes it a pain to develop BibleTime and gives me enough reason to
want to fork Sword.

Turning on and fixing pedantic warnings will help find real bugs.
FACT! Forcing developers to work blindfolded will not help anyone.

The same tools can be used to find bugs in Sword code, and SHOULD
regularly be used for this purpose to ensure code quality. As is
obvious these are currently NOT BEING USED by Sword developers.
However, when things eventually break, users complain to the BibleTime
project. Hence, it is also in the interests of front-ends to ensure
that the code of Sword is of good quality. Again - if Sword won't work
to ensure this and wont let us in to fix things, we have another
reason to fork.

This again leads us to the issue of attracting new developers to
Sword. I don't want to write on this more than necessary to provide a
small argument for my conclusion. Afaik the current situation isn't
working well. Biggest obstacles for me personally include working
blindfolded, submitting patches by e-mail and not getting enough
feedback for (ignored) patches and other emails.

To conclude - maybe its just me, but altogether I really feel it were
easier to maintain a parallel fork (at minimal to provide set of
patches) than to waste my time writing long letters trying to make
this relationship work in its current form. I accept whatever path the
Sword project takes, but if it's not enough for the needs of BibleTime
and our devs, we will make our own choices as well.


Blessings,
Jaak
The BibleTime team


PS: I apologize if this late-night response is incomprehensible.
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Re: I implore you...

refdoc@gmx.net
In reply to this post by Chris Little-2

> On 6/9/2013 1:26 PM, Troy A. Griffitts wrote:
> > Do all the bindings build ok?  It sounded like Peter still had some
> > troubles.

Unresolved. I am fairly clueless on all matters compiling, but it seems
from googling that the problem is one of a linkage problem relating to
c++ - if this helps anyone else to track things down

Peter

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Re: I implore you...

Greg Hellings
In reply to this post by Troy A. Griffitts


On Jun 9, 2013 4:28 PM, "Troy A. Griffitts" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> :)
>
> Is everyone happy with SVN HEAD?
>
> I'm happy with the vspace cleanup.  Does it meet everyone else's need?
>
> Do all the bindings build ok?  It sounded like Peter still had some troubles.
>

I can work with him to find the difference between his environment and mine and resolve that. The bindings build fine in Fedora 18 just two hours ago, so it seems to be an Ubuntu (I believe Peter is an Ubuntu user?) thing. I have not heard other failure reports but the Swig bindings are not regularly built by most people.

If we can have a regular release maintenance branch which really is limited to fixes only and is short release cycles, I would rather work this out there and make the fix part of 1.7.1.

> Greg, do I still need to apply a patch from you?
>

I believe my patch for building on Linux in the absence of cURL is still unapplied. That is the only "ready to go" patch I can think of from me that is outstanding.

--Greg

> I've deployed HEAD for our SWORDWeb installation at: http://crosswire.org/study
>
> I've browsed through some various locations: Gen, Matt.5+7, Ps., etc. which might cause trouble.  Most all seemed to display fairly well.
>
>
> Troy
>
>
>
> On 06/09/2013 05:09 PM, Greg Hellings wrote:
>>
>> ...please just release 1.7.0 now. 15 months ago Troy promised it would be released the following month. Some things have happened that made it a bit difficult, but 15 MORE months beyond the already-too-long time is ridiculous. Please just release it as it is and then make regular bug-fix releases to address each of these outstanding bugs.
>>
>> Please, stop with the "one more bug" or "one more thing" or "next week/month, I  promise". Just release it. Xiphos is unable to make a new release because it has been repeatedly promised that "very soon now" a new Sword would be released, so the application has committed to the current SVN of Sword. BibleTime has support for several of the existing Sword features in a development branch but cannot make a release with that support because of a commitment to only supporting released Sword versions.
>>
>> Troy, you've said one reason you procrastinate releases is because you don't like going through the release process. I've offered twice now - with no response - to manage a stable branch of the library and make regular bug-fix releases from that while main trunk development continues onwards. With git, I already maintain such functionality on the github mirror of CrossWire - doing it for a stable branch would not be more difficult. Maybe someone else would also be willing if you don't want me to do that.
>>
>> But please, can we just have a release? 'Twould be nice.
>>
>> --Greg
>>
>>
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>
>
>
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Re: I implore you...

Greg Hellings
In reply to this post by Troy A. Griffitts

David is the only person I recall referring to existing mid verse titles. Perhaps he will know of one?

--Greg

On Jun 9, 2013 4:42 PM, "Troy A. Griffitts" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Can anyone remember the location of a midverse section heading?  I'd like to check the display, but can't seem to remember where one is.

On 06/09/2013 10:26 PM, Troy A. Griffitts wrote:
:)

Is everyone happy with SVN HEAD?

I'm happy with the vspace cleanup.  Does it meet everyone else's need?

Do all the bindings build ok?  It sounded like Peter still had some troubles.

Greg, do I still need to apply a patch from you?

I've deployed HEAD for our SWORDWeb installation at: http://crosswire.org/study

I've browsed through some various locations: Gen, Matt.5+7, Ps., etc. which might cause trouble.  Most all seemed to display fairly well.


Troy


On 06/09/2013 05:09 PM, Greg Hellings wrote:
...please just release 1.7.0 now. 15 months ago Troy promised it would be released the following month. Some things have happened that made it a bit difficult, but 15 MORE months beyond the already-too-long time is ridiculous. Please just release it as it is and then make regular bug-fix releases to address each of these outstanding bugs.

Please, stop with the "one more bug" or "one more thing" or "next week/month, I  promise". Just release it. Xiphos is unable to make a new release because it has been repeatedly promised that "very soon now" a new Sword would be released, so the application has committed to the current SVN of Sword. BibleTime has support for several of the existing Sword features in a development branch but cannot make a release with that support because of a commitment to only supporting released Sword versions.

Troy, you've said one reason you procrastinate releases is because you don't like going through the release process. I've offered twice now - with no response - to manage a stable branch of the library and make regular bug-fix releases from that while main trunk development continues onwards. With git, I already maintain such functionality on the github mirror of CrossWire - doing it for a stable branch would not be more difficult. Maybe someone else would also be willing if you don't want me to do that.

But please, can we just have a release? 'Twould be nice.

--Greg


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Re: I implore you...

David Haslam
In the USFM files from the Translation Trust that we used for making the Turkish Bible module, there were 3 mid-verse section headings in Acts.

I recently resent these files to Chris Little, so that he could provide a fix for an unrelated issue in usfm2osis.py

The locations were in or near:

Acts 10:24
Acts 12:20
Acts 14:21

I have not yet looked at how usfm2osis.py now processes these.

For the released module, because mid-verse titles were so few and because SWORD couldn't deal with them back then, we went back to the Gen Sec of the Trust, and he granted us leeway as follows:

My suggestion is that the heading be placed at the beginning of verse 24 of Acts 14. It goes better there anyway since the Antakya to which the return is all about is the one in verse 26. Putting it in the middle of 21-22 creates the confusion with the other Antakya in verse 22.

In Acts 10 the title can go at the beginning of verse 24.

In Acts 12 the title can go at the beginning of verse 20.

Hope this helps.
Rod

-----

David Haslam

PS.  It should be pointed out that module TurNTB still has an outstanding issue with regard to section titles placement. See http://www.crosswire.org/tracker/browse/MOD-189

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Re: I implore you...

David Haslam
In reply to this post by Greg Hellings
Having responded for the location of mid-verse titles in the USFM source files used for a module already released (TurNTB),
but based an authorized workaround, the other examples which need to be tested and solved
are in the USFM source files for the Tok Pisin Bible which Michael Johnson recently provided
along with the good news of permissions having at last been granted.

Mid-verse section titles abound in these files, and from what we know,  in several other Bible translations too.
These are now much more common than we generally thought 18 months ago.

This is why I re-posted a couple of old threads on this topic.

David
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Re: I implore you...

David Haslam
Yet as regards working towards a SWORD 1.7 release, even if the developers did manage to devise a solution for mid-verse section titles in the SWORD engine, I'm afraid that because even for pre-verse titles, usfm2osis.py is at odds with how osis2mod expects them, we do not and would not have a useful test suite.

I've only hinted at this in recent weeks.

I've discussed it with DM Smith, who had hoped to do a bit of sleuthing to help me frame an evidence based case. Awaiting further news.

David

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Re: I implore you...

Chris Burrell
In reply to this post by Jaak Ristioja-2

I haven't touched c code for a while but can't you simply use a grep to exclude the stuff you're not interested in?

On 9 Jun 2013 22:55, "Jaak Ristioja" <[hidden email]> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 09.06.2013 23:21, Troy A. Griffitts wrote:
> I don't think other developers are getting ignored.  Please be
> specific.  Just because I don't accept a patch doesn't mean a
> developer is getting ignored.
>
> In fact, many times trying to make this release, when people
> complain that we need something fixed for this release, I ask for a
> simple testsuite addition to show the problem and desired result,
> and don't get a response.
>
> I don't believe the problem is as you think it is Jaak.  Many
> people whine about this or that. Not all whine for things to go in
> the same direction.
>
> Everyone whines for a release but not everyone is willing to help
> submit tests and then fixes for those tests.
>
> You stated that you would get involved to help, but you only
> submit things for which I previously told you I wasn't interested
> in accepting (worrying about pedantic warnings whose changes often
> make the code less readable and do nothing to improve any of the
> real problems for the end user.  Though I do appreciate a few of
> the warning fixes you submitted, a few being actual bug fixed too
> (thank you)-- I'm just ranting right now.)

As a BibleTime developer, I want to available tools (-Wall, -Wextra,
cppcheck, etc) to fix any errors in my code. Due to the Sword header
files which generate a lot of warnings this task is VERY inconvenient.
For example, when I compile the whole of BibleTime with GCC, I get 549
warnings from Sword headers (mostly for unused arguments) - how am I
supposed to find the warnings relevant for BibleTime? This alone often
makes it a pain to develop BibleTime and gives me enough reason to
want to fork Sword.

Turning on and fixing pedantic warnings will help find real bugs.
FACT! Forcing developers to work blindfolded will not help anyone.

The same tools can be used to find bugs in Sword code, and SHOULD
regularly be used for this purpose to ensure code quality. As is
obvious these are currently NOT BEING USED by Sword developers.
However, when things eventually break, users complain to the BibleTime
project. Hence, it is also in the interests of front-ends to ensure
that the code of Sword is of good quality. Again - if Sword won't work
to ensure this and wont let us in to fix things, we have another
reason to fork.

This again leads us to the issue of attracting new developers to
Sword. I don't want to write on this more than necessary to provide a
small argument for my conclusion. Afaik the current situation isn't
working well. Biggest obstacles for me personally include working
blindfolded, submitting patches by e-mail and not getting enough
feedback for (ignored) patches and other emails.

To conclude - maybe its just me, but altogether I really feel it were
easier to maintain a parallel fork (at minimal to provide set of
patches) than to waste my time writing long letters trying to make
this relationship work in its current form. I accept whatever path the
Sword project takes, but if it's not enough for the needs of BibleTime
and our devs, we will make our own choices as well.


Blessings,
Jaak
The BibleTime team


PS: I apologize if this late-night response is incomprehensible.
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Re: I implore you...

Troy A. Griffitts
In reply to this post by Jaak Ristioja-2
Jaak,

I accepted and applied your header file patch nearly 5 months ago.  Are
you telling me that you still have 549 warnings from SWORD headers?

Troy



On 06/09/2013 11:55 PM, Jaak Ristioja wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 09.06.2013 23:21, Troy A. Griffitts wrote:
>> I don't think other developers are getting ignored.  Please be
>> specific.  Just because I don't accept a patch doesn't mean a
>> developer is getting ignored.
>>
>> In fact, many times trying to make this release, when people
>> complain that we need something fixed for this release, I ask for a
>> simple testsuite addition to show the problem and desired result,
>> and don't get a response.
>>
>> I don't believe the problem is as you think it is Jaak.  Many
>> people whine about this or that. Not all whine for things to go in
>> the same direction.
>>
>> Everyone whines for a release but not everyone is willing to help
>> submit tests and then fixes for those tests.
>>
>> You stated that you would get involved to help, but you only
>> submit things for which I previously told you I wasn't interested
>> in accepting (worrying about pedantic warnings whose changes often
>> make the code less readable and do nothing to improve any of the
>> real problems for the end user.  Though I do appreciate a few of
>> the warning fixes you submitted, a few being actual bug fixed too
>> (thank you)-- I'm just ranting right now.)
> As a BibleTime developer, I want to available tools (-Wall, -Wextra,
> cppcheck, etc) to fix any errors in my code. Due to the Sword header
> files which generate a lot of warnings this task is VERY inconvenient.
> For example, when I compile the whole of BibleTime with GCC, I get 549
> warnings from Sword headers (mostly for unused arguments) - how am I
> supposed to find the warnings relevant for BibleTime? This alone often
> makes it a pain to develop BibleTime and gives me enough reason to
> want to fork Sword.
>
> Turning on and fixing pedantic warnings will help find real bugs.
> FACT! Forcing developers to work blindfolded will not help anyone.
>
> The same tools can be used to find bugs in Sword code, and SHOULD
> regularly be used for this purpose to ensure code quality. As is
> obvious these are currently NOT BEING USED by Sword developers.
> However, when things eventually break, users complain to the BibleTime
> project. Hence, it is also in the interests of front-ends to ensure
> that the code of Sword is of good quality. Again - if Sword won't work
> to ensure this and wont let us in to fix things, we have another
> reason to fork.
>
> This again leads us to the issue of attracting new developers to
> Sword. I don't want to write on this more than necessary to provide a
> small argument for my conclusion. Afaik the current situation isn't
> working well. Biggest obstacles for me personally include working
> blindfolded, submitting patches by e-mail and not getting enough
> feedback for (ignored) patches and other emails.
>
> To conclude - maybe its just me, but altogether I really feel it were
> easier to maintain a parallel fork (at minimal to provide set of
> patches) than to waste my time writing long letters trying to make
> this relationship work in its current form. I accept whatever path the
> Sword project takes, but if it's not enough for the needs of BibleTime
> and our devs, we will make our own choices as well.
>
>
> Blessings,
> Jaak
> The BibleTime team
>
>
> PS: I apologize if this late-night response is incomprehensible.
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>
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Re: I implore you...

Troy A. Griffitts
In reply to this post by David Haslam
I am unaware that SWORD does not support mid-verse section headings.

They are the easier case, as opposed to pre-verse section headings which
require special treatment.  I am simply looking for a known location in
existing module with a mid-verse heading to check and see.  If you know
of one, please, could you send the module name and verse location, or
better, simply check it out on swordweb yourself and report back:

http://crosswire.org/sword




On 06/10/2013 08:05 AM, David Haslam wrote:

> In the USFM files from the Translation Trust that we used for making the
> Turkish Bible module, there were 3 mid-verse section headings in Acts.
>
> I recently resent these files to Chris Little, so that he could provide a
> fix for an unrelated  issue
> <http://www.crosswire.org/tracker/browse/MODTOOLS-42>   in usfm2osis.py
>
> The locations were in or near:
>
> Acts 10:24
> Acts 12:20
> Acts 14:21
>
> I have not yet looked at how usfm2osis.py now processes these.
>
> For the released module, because mid-verse titles were so few and because
> SWORD couldn't deal with them back then, we went back to the Gen Sec of the
> Trust, and he granted us leeway as follows:
>
> My suggestion is that the heading be placed at the beginning of verse 24 of
> Acts 14. It goes better there anyway since the Antakya to which the return
> is all about is the one in verse 26. Putting it in the middle of 21-22
> creates the confusion with the other Antakya in verse 22.
>
> In Acts 10 the title can go at the beginning of verse 24.
>
> In Acts 12 the title can go at the beginning of verse 20.
>
> Hope this helps.
> Rod
>
> -----
>
> David Haslam
>
> PS.  It should be pointed out that module TurNTB still has an outstanding
> issue with regard to section titles placement. See
> http://www.crosswire.org/tracker/browse/MOD-189
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://sword-dev.350566.n4.nabble.com/I-implore-you-tp4652437p4652452.html
> Sent from the SWORD Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> sword-devel mailing list: [hidden email]
> http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel
> Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page


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Re: I implore you...

Chris Little-2
I believe that the issue is simply that osis2mod identifies all titles
as pre-verse titles. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but that's the
only issue I can really imagine.

--Chris

On 6/9/2013 11:46 PM, Troy A. Griffitts wrote:

> I am unaware that SWORD does not support mid-verse section headings.
>
> They are the easier case, as opposed to pre-verse section headings which
> require special treatment.  I am simply looking for a known location in
> existing module with a mid-verse heading to check and see.  If you know
> of one, please, could you send the module name and verse location, or
> better, simply check it out on swordweb yourself and report back:
>
> http://crosswire.org/sword
>
>
>
>
> On 06/10/2013 08:05 AM, David Haslam wrote:
>> In the USFM files from the Translation Trust that we used for making the
>> Turkish Bible module, there were 3 mid-verse section headings in Acts.
>>
>> I recently resent these files to Chris Little, so that he could provide a
>> fix for an unrelated  issue
>> <http://www.crosswire.org/tracker/browse/MODTOOLS-42>   in usfm2osis.py
>>
>> The locations were in or near:
>>
>> Acts 10:24
>> Acts 12:20
>> Acts 14:21
>>
>> I have not yet looked at how usfm2osis.py now processes these.
>>
>> For the released module, because mid-verse titles were so few and because
>> SWORD couldn't deal with them back then, we went back to the Gen Sec
>> of the
>> Trust, and he granted us leeway as follows:
>>
>> My suggestion is that the heading be placed at the beginning of verse
>> 24 of
>> Acts 14. It goes better there anyway since the Antakya to which the
>> return
>> is all about is the one in verse 26. Putting it in the middle of 21-22
>> creates the confusion with the other Antakya in verse 22.
>>
>> In Acts 10 the title can go at the beginning of verse 24.
>>
>> In Acts 12 the title can go at the beginning of verse 20.
>>
>> Hope this helps.
>> Rod
>>
>> -----
>>
>> David Haslam
>>
>> PS.  It should be pointed out that module TurNTB still has an outstanding
>> issue with regard to section titles placement. See
>> http://www.crosswire.org/tracker/browse/MOD-189
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://sword-dev.350566.n4.nabble.com/I-implore-you-tp4652437p4652452.html
>>
>> Sent from the SWORD Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sword-devel mailing list: [hidden email]
>> http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel
>> Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: I implore you...

Ben Morgan-2
In reply to this post by Troy A. Griffitts
They are supported. E.g. Song of Solomon in the ESV has them. E.g. 4:16:

Note that some of the titles here do look weird, but they are supported.

God Bless,
Ben
-------------------------------------------------------------
For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone,
declares the Lord God; so turn, and live.”
Ezekiel 18:32 (ESV)



On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 4:46 PM, Troy A. Griffitts <[hidden email]> wrote:
I am unaware that SWORD does not support mid-verse section headings.

They are the easier case, as opposed to pre-verse section headings which require special treatment.  I am simply looking for a known location in existing module with a mid-verse heading to check and see.  If you know of one, please, could you send the module name and verse location, or better, simply check it out on swordweb yourself and report back:

http://crosswire.org/sword





On 06/10/2013 08:05 AM, David Haslam wrote:
In the USFM files from the Translation Trust that we used for making the
Turkish Bible module, there were 3 mid-verse section headings in Acts.

I recently resent these files to Chris Little, so that he could provide a
fix for an unrelated  issue
<http://www.crosswire.org/tracker/browse/MODTOOLS-42>   in usfm2osis.py

The locations were in or near:

Acts 10:24
Acts 12:20
Acts 14:21

I have not yet looked at how usfm2osis.py now processes these.

For the released module, because mid-verse titles were so few and because
SWORD couldn't deal with them back then, we went back to the Gen Sec of the
Trust, and he granted us leeway as follows:

My suggestion is that the heading be placed at the beginning of verse 24 of
Acts 14. It goes better there anyway since the Antakya to which the return
is all about is the one in verse 26. Putting it in the middle of 21-22
creates the confusion with the other Antakya in verse 22.

In Acts 10 the title can go at the beginning of verse 24.

In Acts 12 the title can go at the beginning of verse 20.

Hope this helps.
Rod

-----

David Haslam

PS.  It should be pointed out that module TurNTB still has an outstanding
issue with regard to section titles placement. See
http://www.crosswire.org/tracker/browse/MOD-189





--
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Re: I implore you...

Jaak Ristioja-2
In reply to this post by Troy A. Griffitts
Ah, sorry! The warnings come from building against the latest version of
Sword. I think they might be fixed in SVN. I tracked the respective
change back to a commit, but the commit message didn't say anything
about it (SVN 2690).

I hope the new version will be released soon.

Jaak

On 10.06.2013 09:43, Troy A. Griffitts wrote:

> Jaak,
>
> I accepted and applied your header file patch nearly 5 months ago.  Are
> you telling me that you still have 549 warnings from SWORD headers?
>
> Troy
>
>
>
> On 06/09/2013 11:55 PM, Jaak Ristioja wrote:
> On 09.06.2013 23:21, Troy A. Griffitts wrote:
>>>> I don't think other developers are getting ignored.  Please be
>>>> specific.  Just because I don't accept a patch doesn't mean a
>>>> developer is getting ignored.
>>>>
>>>> In fact, many times trying to make this release, when people
>>>> complain that we need something fixed for this release, I ask for a
>>>> simple testsuite addition to show the problem and desired result,
>>>> and don't get a response.
>>>>
>>>> I don't believe the problem is as you think it is Jaak.  Many
>>>> people whine about this or that. Not all whine for things to go in
>>>> the same direction.
>>>>
>>>> Everyone whines for a release but not everyone is willing to help
>>>> submit tests and then fixes for those tests.
>>>>
>>>> You stated that you would get involved to help, but you only
>>>> submit things for which I previously told you I wasn't interested
>>>> in accepting (worrying about pedantic warnings whose changes often
>>>> make the code less readable and do nothing to improve any of the
>>>> real problems for the end user.  Though I do appreciate a few of
>>>> the warning fixes you submitted, a few being actual bug fixed too
>>>> (thank you)-- I'm just ranting right now.)
> As a BibleTime developer, I want to available tools (-Wall, -Wextra,
> cppcheck, etc) to fix any errors in my code. Due to the Sword header
> files which generate a lot of warnings this task is VERY inconvenient.
> For example, when I compile the whole of BibleTime with GCC, I get 549
> warnings from Sword headers (mostly for unused arguments) - how am I
> supposed to find the warnings relevant for BibleTime? This alone often
> makes it a pain to develop BibleTime and gives me enough reason to
> want to fork Sword.
>
> Turning on and fixing pedantic warnings will help find real bugs.
> FACT! Forcing developers to work blindfolded will not help anyone.
>
> The same tools can be used to find bugs in Sword code, and SHOULD
> regularly be used for this purpose to ensure code quality. As is
> obvious these are currently NOT BEING USED by Sword developers.
> However, when things eventually break, users complain to the BibleTime
> project. Hence, it is also in the interests of front-ends to ensure
> that the code of Sword is of good quality. Again - if Sword won't work
> to ensure this and wont let us in to fix things, we have another
> reason to fork.
>
> This again leads us to the issue of attracting new developers to
> Sword. I don't want to write on this more than necessary to provide a
> small argument for my conclusion. Afaik the current situation isn't
> working well. Biggest obstacles for me personally include working
> blindfolded, submitting patches by e-mail and not getting enough
> feedback for (ignored) patches and other emails.
>
> To conclude - maybe its just me, but altogether I really feel it were
> easier to maintain a parallel fork (at minimal to provide set of
> patches) than to waste my time writing long letters trying to make
> this relationship work in its current form. I accept whatever path the
> Sword project takes, but if it's not enough for the needs of BibleTime
> and our devs, we will make our own choices as well.
>
>
> Blessings,
> Jaak
> The BibleTime team
>
>
> PS: I apologize if this late-night response is incomprehensible.
>>
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>
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Re: I implore you...

refdoc@gmx.net
In reply to this post by Greg Hellings
Dear Greg,

Von: "Greg Hellings" <[hidden email]>

On Jun 9, 2013 4:28 PM, "Troy A. Griffitts" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Do all the bindings build ok?  It sounded like Peter still had some troubles.
>
> I can work with him to find the difference between his environment and mine and resolve that. The bindings build fine in Fedora 18 just two hours ago, so it seems to be an Ubuntu (I believe Peter is an
> Ubuntu user?) thing. I have not heard other failure reports but the Swig bindings are not regularly built by most people.

Thanks, this would be appreciated.

I would tend to agree that it might be a problem of my environment +/- my level of (in)competence. Having said this, I never remember so many difficulties when it is solely my fault for missing/messing something. I usually come to a point where I slap my forehead and all works.

FWIW, a clean checkout of sword from svn builds fine with autotools for me. The perl bindings build without error (autotools), but throw a strop when loaded in a perl script (as before). The strop appears to mean that a c++ environment (libstdc++) does not link in successfully - acc googling the error message. Looking at the final automake scripts, I would expect that libstdc++ is somewhere mentioned, but it is not. As the automake scripts appear to be build by machine in a multistage process I am not entirely sure where to look for the origin of the problem. If this is the problem.

Using the cmake build-relase.sh script I am  getting a infinite loop at around the 97% mark. Am not at home to give the exact error message. The build-debug script gives another error message. I will forward exact problems later today.

Using cmake along the wiki description - i.e. from scratch instead of using the build scripts, I am unable to build too.

I am not too bothered if the bindings do not make the release in working form for me, as long as I get them working at some stage again. I do need them for module making

Peter


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